It was a bright evening on 16th July 2009 when Martin Lewis (of MoneySavingExpert) battled through his Repetitive Strain Injury (!) to lay down a new policy for the contributors to the MoneySavingExpert forum. Little could Martin predict at the time (perhaps) the subsequent fall out that his forum team’s new guidelines could cause. So what’s new on the MoneySavingExpert forum?
Martin Lewis’ new MoneySavingExpert forum guidelines were designed to clear up a few issues that have been dragging on for some time – some people have been turning a little aggressive (persistently on particular members), newbies getting stamped on and worst of all, people criticising The Messiah (Martin Lewis himself).
Obviously new measures and a clamp down quickly followed. Most of the new forum guidelines are said to be for the greater good of the MoneySavingExpert forum. Indeed, the initial feedback seemed promising. The tone was set by the first few pages of comments (from Martin’s most avid followers on the MoneySavingExpert forum, rallying around and providing full support for the changes).
But @michael and @pete commented on @Sam Clemens’ Martin Lewis – A Reader Rants guest post on Insiders View to show a different side to the story.
On 20th July, Pete posted: “Lewis is a jerk,he bans users of his site if they dont agree with everything he says, well he gets his henchmen to do it because he hasn’t the balls to do it,then if things go wrong he blames everyone bar himself.His favourite saying is “this is a private site and i can do and say anything i want” Him and his cronies talk about users in private and then ban them if they dont obey his every command. The banned user has no say in the matter,no email,no private message, nothing, the sooner he is gone the better.”
Passionate stuff. We’re not sure if Pete’s comment came as a result of his treatment after the new guidelines (which proposed a fairer yellow, red and black card banning system), but he’s clearly disgruntled by the way Martin Lewis and his team have treated him on the MoneySavingExpert forum. They claim that posts have mysteriously gone missing. Posts, we’re told, that were not completely complimentary to Martin and his “advice” but put across in a sensible and fair way. If this is the case, it’s a serious issue. But is that what’s really happening? Or is Martin Lewis hold a poisoned chalice in providing the MoneySavingExpert forum in the first place?
So here’s a space for some non-filtered, no rules, genuine and honest feedback from the MoneySavingExpert forum members (and you’ll be sure to get the MoneySavingExpert employees posting rave reviews too!). How do you guys feel you’re treated on the forum? Have you posted anything contradictary to Martin’s views? Do you feel there’s a little bit of censorship going on? Or is it all above board? Are the guidelines genuinely for the better? Has anything actually changed?
No judgements or opinions from Ernest or George to start with on this one – the floor’s open…
Update:
We’ve got the moderators in a panic. We can see traffic coming in from the abuse forums and via MSE Private Messages hitting our servers. They’re actively deleting posts right now….
Update:
Welcome members from the bootsaholics forum – we would love to join in the conversation but our request for membership has been denied. We want to hear from you so conact us now.
Capital One
Credit Made Clearer
lovemoney
Relationship with Your Money
CashQuestions
Personal Finance Problem Solver
Life Cover
Insurance Made Easy
{ 82 comments }
Martin’s new rules do sound like they were designed with the best intentions. But at the end of the day, it’s the enforcement of those rules which will be the proof in the pudding.
Personally speaking, I stopped posting on the MSE forums because I felt the top posters in the community are too rude and submissive of new members. Unless you’re in the “in crowd” you don’t get a chance to share what you’ve found – defeats the point of a forum at all really.
Unfortunately, I’ve not yet seen a change to that mentality so I’ll happily lurk and sponge any good ideas off the forum.
Having posted in the forum in the past trying to learn and gather information I have found the place extremely hostile if you have an opinion different from the norm.
There is a lack of intelligent conversation and people are more keen to argue and insult than share points of view.
Far too many egos floating around on that forum for me. Martin portrays an image of being a man for the people (whatever your personal opinion of him is) but his main forum monkeys are total up their own arses.
I just lurk now. No bother from anyone and let someone else ask the questions you have. Much better.
Come on guys. It’s not that bad. And any personality clashes can be traded against the savings you make. We’ve all got to participate on the boards or it ceases to be of value.
It’s a forum so caveat emptor for anyone who reads it. To see how much is deleted make a note of the number assigned to a post you may decide to rely on. If when you check back a few days later that number has changed that tells you posts before it have been deleted and numbers reassigned. I’d say the forum on top ten shopping website HotUKDeals is more suspect than MSE’s forum in terms of where the info is coming from. HotUK Deals is supposedly a community site but links are monetised through affiliate networks. The public submits deals supposedly but it is owned by Paul Nikkel who is also a director of Quidco, a cashback site. Posts from HotUKDeals are duplicated on various websites such as this one
http://freebiesites.org/
Don’t know who owns freebiesites and it is bound to be no info on WhoIs. The way freebiesites is set out seems to divert you to click on the Google ads as very little in the actual deal info is clickable. When you find an inbound link back to HotUk Deals it does not take you to individual posts, it takes you to index pages on HotUKDeals which is what you would do if you wanted to make your website look better to Google. If you search Google for Asda deals, Tesco deals, Argos deals, HotUKDeals is coming up second every time. The most interesting bit on freebiesites is the tag cloud. If the public was submitting all the info on HotUKDeals as it claims, you would expect Quidco to be on a par with other cashback sites and certainly smaller than big high stret retailers, but Quidco is massive.
I complained to Trading Standards that it was not the public submitting the deals, it was merchants pretending to be the public which is a criminal offence but TS said there was no way of finding out who was posting deals. The terms say anyone can sumbit deals.
Given the huge influence of these forums there will be tighter regulation. Forums like MSE were influential in so many people taking out Icelandic savings accounts. Forums spread information about Botox treatments and swine flu parties, they have the potential to do real harm and probably need tighter regulation.
Although I loathe Martin Lewis he could easily turn all the links in his forum into affiliate links and make eve more money but he doesn’t (I hope not anyway, he may be doing it secretly so you can’t see). Paul Nikkel does from a forum with huge reach, huge traffic numbers and I would not be at all surprised to find out he also owns all the sites linking in.
Not that Martin lewis is a saint, love the fact he was caught out on GMTV last week boasting about 25% off having bought three shirts and then had to apologise on his blog cos it wasn’t true. He made a mistake, it was three other shirts he had the 25% off on. Oh yeah.
The FACTS are this,if you post anything thats NOT complimentary to Martin,or if you argue a point strongly with any of his cronies,even in a sensible,polite way,you are more than likeley going to be banned.You get labelled a trouble maker if you dare to question anything in the so called rules.As Martin himself likes to point out,its his site and he can do and say and ban anyone he feels like,even if he just does’nt like their username or even what football team they support,he loves pointing that out.Yet,not too long ago,before he made tv fame he would beg you to stay on his site.He’s changed since fame hit him,its gone to his head.Well remember this lewis old chap,be kind to people on the way up because you just might meet them again on the way down.
There are board guides on that site,especially one named Glad and another named Edinburghlass who have too much power,they are’nt,as board guides supposed to ban anyone but they are well in with a team member named MSE Andrea and between them they almost do ALL the banning,lets just say if any of those two board guides asks MSE Andrea to ban someone then she does so.Those board guides also remove posts that they don’t agree with(not that there’s anything wrong with a post)just that THEY don’t agree with it.There’s a forum manager that does’nt even want to hear any problems a user may have too,he or she just wants a cushy life and get paid for doing as little as possible.
There’s a user on there named Quasar who has like a zillion posts,what a sad bitch that is.I found out last week that she is well in with the abuse team too and has been known to get other users banned,just by asking MSE Andrea.Some users told me they think that Quasar is something higher than just a user of the forums.
Lewis would’nt know “fair play” if it hit him flush on his nose,he’s just an two bit reporter who got lucky swiping other peoples ideas thats posted by users of his website
Have you looked at the Forum Policy board?
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.html?f=97
Plenty of very negative and undeleted stuff there if you look (Admittedly you have to be a member to see that board but I think that’s fair enough – what’s that old phrase about washing dirty linen in public?).
Looking at the criticism in the comments on this thread, you’ll find much worse clear and undeleted over on mse forums. The only ones that would end up being deleted are the ones like from “maria hogg” who names, acuses or otherwise abuses Board Guides who volunteer their free time to MSE and I think it would be bit offensive if they wern’t protected! – and too many comments like that get whole threads deleted where otherwise they’d be left up with all the criticism on show.
By the way – I found this site because it was linked to at:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=1858311
but I can almost guarantee it will be deleted – Not because MSE are censoring negative content, but firstly because it was posted by a newbie rather than a regular (a sure sign someone is just there to make trouble than rationally debate) and more importantly the link here will be deleted because of the comments above that accuses a Board Guide and other members of impropriety – What else would you expect them to do?
Leave links to places where their trusted volunteers are discussed and slagged off whenever someone has a grievance – justified or not?
Big people talk about ideas. (hint: Martin Lewis)
Mediocre people talk about news. (hint: the author of the article)
Small people talk about other people. (hint: some of you)
I’m a user on there (go on- look me up :p) and though I’m certainly not one of the “cronies”, I’ve found MSE to be nothing but fair.
Most of the disgruntled members are newbies that aren’t newbies and are only there to cause trouble, because they have had threads ripped to bits by more experienced people and their egos are sore.
As for people critising Martin getting banned I don’t think so. The threads may get deleted, but in my mind that is the same as going into someones house and telling them they are shit- they’d soon get told where to shove it.
Yes I do think the new system is flawed- I got reported for calling stupid ungrateful poster a stupid ingrate for example, which got me pissed off pretty quick, but there you go. The forum is run by user reports and the users there are no different to any other people- some of them will be cunts.
@A.moneysaver
Disagree, moneysaver is one of many slogans adopted by the website and slogans cover up the truth which is the forum is about money spending. Part of the reason why its largest contingent are deeply in debt is because they receive a hyped up weekly high pressure email about products that retailers can’t sell in the credit crunch and rush out at 7.30 in the morning, driving from one branch to another to clear the shelves. The most popular part of the forum is about greed and a bloated idea of normal spending which is anything from going out to restaurants on a Monday night (to save money), to buying Kurt Geiger shoes (to save money). No wonder Martin Lewis and his namesake in America Jim Cramer are the butt of comedians’ parody. To an outsider like me reading the site’s forum is like reading Voltaire. We have feet, feet are for shoes, we must have Kurt Geiger shoes. Madness.
But it is not madness, it is a huge money making scheme making so much profit for Martin Lewis that in an era of transparency he has to hide his from public scrutiny. And it behaves exactly like the rest of the financial servies sector, takes the profit but when things go wrong as they did over Icelandic banks or over bank changes or credit card debts, it doesn’t cough up and compensate member’s losses, it pass them on to the rest of us.
Mike from the post above
Board guides get £20 a month per board
I find that posts are removed because they quote a lewis post,if its showing that his attitude one of total arrogance
If martin lewis let users post concerns about HIS rules then maybe people would’nt need to post here,As it is now,if you post anything that critiscises martin lewis or the rules it gets removed,even if its 100% true
MSE Andrea’s ben banning people again because they read this site
Why does it matter if you are banned, although you receive a message saying you are banned for ever the next day you can register and start again if there is something useful you want to share on the site.
The issue of moderation is something that every internet forum has to contend with. Well, certainly any forum that enjoys any degree of success, that is.
It matters not how long, considered or well written your posting guidelines might be, at some point they will have to be enforced by an actual person and that means opening everything up to interpretation. The higher the number of administrators means the broader the spectrum of interpretation.
The way in which you set about recruiting your prefects also has implications, especially if brought in from your own established community, where personal agendas and, at worst, egos have developed. This would seem to be the issue that is most prevalent here.
The forums at MSE are without a doubt a valuable resource, but one that does need to properly maintained which will invariably mean pruning here and there. As long as this is done with an even hand there is no reason that they should not continue to flourish. The problem is, to achieve consistency it does require investing into proper and well defined resources. Looking at the boards in terms of usability, functionality and general appearance, it seems like quite a while since they benefitted from any form investment at all though. That said it is widely rumoured that Mr Lewis deliberately leaves his website aesthetics in the 90’s.
The flipside of all of this, is that you can either like it or lump it. The boards are part of a privately owned website, if the owner would prefer to remove absolutely everything that fails to paint him in anything other than a favourable light, then so be it. As contributors, you should keep this in mind when composing your posts. Who suggested it was a democracy?
As Martin says
“I am within my rights to choose willy-nilly who i allow and dont allow to post. We can be as inconsistent, illogical and downright bizarre in who we choose to post, and how we choose to delete posts as we like.”
And he is right of course,he does all of those things and more
Some useful feedback coming out of there – picking through the personal issues. Obviously there are some fans of the forums and what Martin does and the flip too.
OK, so trying to keep this constructive – thanks @Tron, been a while but balanced opinion as ever – can you guys tackle these?
IF you’ve used the line “it’s a private site he can do what he wants and even says so” – does it not make a difference if he’s misleading the public (e.g. Icelandic savings accounts?). You might say the public have a choice as to whether they listen, but in reality they need protecting from the “celebrity trust” they put in him. If one of the High Street Banks was mis-selling a payment protection policy and making a ton of money on the back of it, you’d come down on them like a (collective) ton of bricks. Rightly. So why should it be different when people want to question Martin’s motives – he’s making a ton of money also!!
IF you’ve said above that you’re disgruntled about the way the forums are managed, can you make the distinction between whether you’re disgruntled with Martin (ego, personality, money making sort of voice) or whether you’re actually annoyed with the moderators who’ve treated you badly? Can you separate the two? And can you see how it might be tough from the moderators point of view?
IF you believe that Martin does what he does purely for the love of the people and a shared hatred of companies ripping off the public, have you thought about how much traffic the site gets and how much the financial institutions and retailers pay for that traffic? The guy could make a few hundred thousand pounds without even trying because the public completely buy into what he says and act without thinking. What are the usual signs of wealth? Expensive property? Nice car? Multiple companies set up to spread the money around a bit more thin? Carefully managed PR program so as not to expose this wealth?
IF you’ve express an anti-Martin opinion, what’s the alternative? If Martin weren’t around, who would pick up the pieces? Watchdog? Which? Government? Money Programme? Are they really alternatives? And even if Martin does get it wrong, does he do more right to counter balanace? Is that a plausible argument? Would we accept the same measure for our politicians or key public service personnel?
The MSE moderators are hammering our server with requests to check the content. They’re actively deleting posts on the MSE forums.
You may also want to read our new post about gay martin lewis
Companies with permission to post
Keep up the good work George,they don’t like anyone else in control,they are so use to being in control, they don’t like it the other way round.Great new post too
I am the (in)famous Quasar.
I’m not the queen in there except what others make me out to be by granting me an importance I do not have. My post count is very high because I take part in the word games – and you can knock out 50 posts in one hour in that way. That these useless posts are added to the total is not my fault.
I do NOT get users banned. In fact I am rather unpopular with a few of the board guides in there and have fallen foul of the rules myself a few times, but don’t let that get in the way of the gossips’ fun. I don’t care that much about those who disagree with me or make a fool of me or of themselves. That’s life. Except, of course, the frequent spammers, whom I report with glee.
Other than that, I’m flatterd by the status some attribute to me. As Oscar Wilde so wisely say, there is only one thing worse than being talked about, and that is NOT being talked about. Keep it up folks, you make me feel sooo important.
By the way you lot needn’t worry. I have no intention of gathering hundreds of posts in here. Off to lunch now. Bon appetit.
Quasar
@ Quasar
Using the same camouflage tactics as you do in MSE are we:-) Who put you in touch with here?let me guess,MSE Andrea.I know you will deny it but it won’t wash in here,enjoy your dinner and i’ll read your post later;-)
MSE Andrea?
Or one of the many many users who are now viewing this site? Again, thanks for granting me such importance. I post mostly in DT and the Arms, who are the least essential of the boards in there, and seldom on the money boards which are the MSE reason of being. Although I appreciate that gets in the way of the gossip.
@ Freebie queen.
What do you mean by camouflage tactic?
@ A.moneysaver
I think I can answer that: Meaning that I post in a way to look all innocent when I have been judged not to be.
Again, I post almost exclusively in the arms and DT, as anyone caring to to through my profile can verify. But obviously even there one can make enemies which then will spill over onto boards I have nothing to do with, if the freebie queen here is indeed the same freebie queen on mse.
This is getting amusing now.
Q
@ Quasar
Ah. I see.
Freebie queen assumes that you post in a way to look all innocent. She also accuses you of getting members banned. Finally, she concludes that you are Using the same camouflage tactics. All this action, Freedbie queen, is from you. Not Quasar.
Quasar, Mike’s post: http://www.insiders-view.co.uk/is-martin-lewis-gay/00559#comment-37590
@A.moneysaver
About right, yes. To be fair of freebie queen, I think she has been fed information by users who have been fed information by users etc etc. You get the idea. Posting in DT as I do, where feeling can run high because of the various religio/political stances, one can make very nasty enemies.
Personally I never believe smear campaign and tend to pay attention to the user’s own posts. It’s so easy to accuse people of things and run with it. I have many flaws, but at least I can say that I make my own mind about people and don’t pay attention to gossips.
Like the one about Martin being gay. As if it were an insult anyway.
Anyway, this newfound feeling of importance makes me feel so heady – champagne on the cheap, Now that’s moneysaving.
Q
I wish to add one thing. I’ve been on mse for 4 years now, and I have seen perfectly good natured users being driven out because they couldn’t take smear campaigns any more, and others who became embarrassed by their post counts (and ensuing taunts) so they re-registered and started afresh. Me? I can’t take any forum that seriously.
@Quasar
(yawn)
@ Freebie Queen
Hope I’m not keeping you up.
I’ll say this to you: having a go at Martin and his forum is one thing because that’s what he’s up for, but mentioning ordinary usernames and accusing without proof other than sheer dislike is quite another. Shame on you, whoever you are. I bet you are not even a user with that name on mse.
Chill out its only the internet,thats your favourite saying is’nt it
take a chill pill.No need to get uptight because you can’t get these posts removed like you can on MSE 
@ Freebie Queen
I’m chilled and rather amused actually. I have made my point and in fact I HOPE that all these posts here stay, so that as many people as possible can view them.
I really don’t understand what everyone is getting so het up about. Life would be bloody boring if everyone had the same views, so if someone disagrees with you GET OVER IT!!!!! If you don’t agree with Martin Lewis just stay off his forums. But I bet you’ll still use all the (FREE) advice on the website. What’s that phrase about biting the hand that feeds you…….
PS. Are you trying to drive all the non-straight users away from this forum by suggesting Martin Lewis being gay is a bad thing? Talk about dictatorship.
@Quasar and @Freebie Queen – glad you can use the post as a safe haven for your posts. But can we keep it constructive – as seasoned pros, perhaps you’re both best placed to tackle the constructive points made in my comment above.
@Becky – please read my previous points/question above the @Freebie Queen and @Quasar personal battle. It’s not simply a case of “if you don’t believe in it, don’t read it” because he “could be” misleading the very vulnerable public who treat celebrity status as trustworthy/gospel advice – even though it is completely unregulated. Discuss…
By the way, we’re not driving people away from our forum. We don’t have a forum. This is a blog. And traffic continues to grow as we speak our free minds.
And if you can find any wording which suggests that being gay is a negative thing from George’s post, I’ll invite you to come forward with it.
Thanks George. I have no “constructive” comments to make because I appreciate that Martin is not everybody’s cup of tea and his style of forum rule enforcement rubs many users up the wrong way. Nothing new with that and it’s good that people can set up sites to discuss that. But you can’t expect users being named and accused of things that cannot be proved (not that I can prove the other way either of course), and not say their bit in defence.
Isn’t that what mse is accused of doing? Banning people without any recourse? Likewise, if a user is accused in here they are entitled to respond. I wouldn’t even have ventured in here unless someone had told me about my being named.
I respect that some mse users are disgruntled and I can even agree with certain criticisms against Martin’s style of moderation, but at the same time I can see that he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t. But at the end of the day I don’t really care because it’s his fight not mine, so I’m not here to battle for him.
Oooopppsss did I say George? Sorry I had just been reading the other page…. My apologies
@Ernest
Consider my wrists slapped,thanks for a great blog
@Freebie Queen – no wrist slapping required, we’re just keen to hear the view on the contentious point raised above. As an ‘insider’ of the MSE forum, you guys are best placed to pick apart those mini debates.
A few people have mentioned it so I thought I would highlight it again:
The MSE forum is not a democracy, it is a dictatorship with henchmen:
Source MSE Martin
@George
Yes thats right its a dictatorship,be warned though,that post will almost certainly be removed now you have linked it.A poster quoted it a day or two ago and one of the henchman have removed it.Lewis never stands by his comments and will try and say its not fair to quote him,which i find hypocritical.
I think the following is a fairly good guide:
http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-behave-on-an-internet-forum
“The real annoying mouthy git is Martin Lewis, often on the radio (5) and TV, shouting down the mic, telling us what fools we are for not switching banks, energy suppliers etc.
Hello, I know that I could get a small amount of interest from Prat and Proxley Building Society, but why would I want to leave the bank I’ve been with all my adult life for a few quid every 3 months? We’re not all idiots who go overdrawn without prior arrangement each month and then whine about the charges.”
cant see the problem with MSE myslelf. Its like driving a car. there are rules which are not always sensible but nethertheless they are there and if you break them you might lose your license. MSE is much the same. i have found its only the obnoxious pricks that get banned so why worry. There seems to be a lot of jealous sad individuals around.
@Absolutebounder
Says you who moaned and cryed for days on end when they removed a load of your posts,don’t deny it because you did and you have since become a member of the clique because someone in the abuse team let you have your own little thread.Stage hypnotist my arse,more like a pervy creep who prays on the vulnerable
Apart friom demonstrating to all what an idiot you are .Your point is?
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